Taking DOOM public gently... for beginners..

[rangerone314]

I've not discussed the doom subject with any neighbors and hopefully by the time doom sets in my double-layed thuja evergreen trees will be high and wide enough to hide my preps and the rose hedge in front of them will be thick enough to discourage anyone from trying to push through the thuja.

Out of sight, out of mind.

[General Doom]

rangerone314, are those thuja trees growing well for you so far? Do you have to do anything special to care for them? Thanks in advance. Feel free to reply with a new thread if this is too off topic here.

[Newfie]

I think you are in good company. Jared Diamond, in "Guns, Germs, & Steel" makes the same point. We "westerners" are dumbing down because it is not much of a trick to live and reproduce.

[Newfie]

Warning, too intellectual and philosophical. May be dangerous to otherwise stable humans.

Synopsis: Places like Malthusia arise as a gathering place for people with a special talent to chat, like a coffee house for writers.

I frequently find myself in conversations, in person or on line, where I am describing the physical world and the challenges we face. I will often hear “Well if that is they way you feel what are you going to do about it? How do you propose we fix it.?” Of course I have no answer, nor am I promoting one. But people just can not hear that. So their response is “If you don't have an answer don't pose the question.” or “If I knew the world would end tomorrow I would plant a tree today.” Or, most frequently they use my lack of a (doable/convenient) solution as proof that my premise is wrong.

Recently I was contemplating something I will call the INEVITABILITY SYNDROME. My world views allows or requires me to see that a lot of what faces us as inevitable. Over population is at the root and it then causes resource depletion (e.g., peak oil/water) and environmental degradation (GW/ocean acidification.) The whole mess leads inevitably to a significant decease in carrying capacity.

The military will test a recruit for physical ability, and if you are color blind you can't be a electronic repairman, you can't read the color codes that identify components. Not all of us can do all things. The vast majority of humans have limited or no capacity to hear this any more than I, who is certifiably tone deaf, can carry a tune. Just can't do, not possible.

Perhaps that is why groups like Malthusia arise, we are in effect "attuned" to the level of difficulty the world faces. We share a capability that most others do not have. No bad intent, they are just tone deaf.

The up shot of this, however, is far reaching and becomes its own feedback mechanism. In once case things are truly inevitable, most people can't see it, and go on with BAU. By definition we who can see it can do nothing - FOR THE POPULATION AT LARGE. What we can do is try to prepare for the consequences. In another case, the situation may not be inevitable IF SOMETHING REASONABLE WAS DONE. But, because they are tone deaf to the inevitability of the situation if they do nothing, they do nothing. I get accused of being over pessimistic, a DOOMER. The the inevitability is human caused.

There is no effectual difference between the truly inevitable and the human induced inevitable. And, once again, I am not proposing a solution, I see none – for humanity in general. The irony is that I am, in reality (what ever that is) the more optimistic person. I have taken a fair view of the situation, evaluated my resources, and am taking actions to increase my odds. I am actually doing something. My genes will have a better chance of surviving for the effort.

I am gradually coming to the point where I wish to discuss and argue less with the general public. If they can't hear the coming band, if they are blind to the signs, then there is nothing I can do for them. I will have my hands full taking care of me and mine. I hope to do that in collaboration with the few other folks in my camp.

It does make me feel more grateful for Malthusia and the few friends who CAN and DO hear the music.

[General Doom]

Great post, Newfie.

[FoolYap]

I am gradually coming to the point where I wish to discuss and argue less with the general public. If they can't hear the coming band, if they are blind to the signs, then there is nothing I can do for them. I will have my hands full taking care of me and mine. I hope to do that in collaboration with the few other folks in my camp.

Nice post.

I want to add one thought on the conclusion. While I largely agree with it, I'm aware of the dangers of "group-think", and of discarding responses or information that's contrary with one's own beliefs and conclusions. It can be a very useful thing to at least listen to contrary arguments.

Doing that, I've moderated my own fears for Peak Oil over the past few years. I worry less about it in the short-term time-frame (say, a decade) than I used to, because I've come to believe that it won't be an abrupt crash into cannibalism </hyperbole> but a long grinding recessionary slide. Not that that won't suck too, but it means my preparations for that scenario are different than they would if I feared the entire US would go dark soon. I don't believe that in 5years I'll never be able to mail-order something, just that it may take a longer time to fill the order, and cost more. Etc.

I fear more for environmental degradation, and global warming in particular, than I did for Peak Oil, frankly. I may be able to become part of a self-sufficient community (nowhere near there now), but climate change could nullify all that by changing what I can grow, or even whether I can live here.

But since I can't live in a constant state of fear and angst (that way leads to depression and nervous breakdowns), I try to lead an orderly retreat from the parts of our culture that I think most get in the way of being personally more resilient in the face of "hard times", whatever that means. No more TV. Almost never go to a mall. Don't eat many (if any) pre-prepared foods. Have a garden. Learn skills. Etc.

Also, I'm trying to just enjoy myself more. Every book I buy doesn't have to be about some kind of skills or preparation. Build some furniture. Take time to enjoy my young daughter as she grows up -- kids are so delightfully curious and excited about new stuff, and it's contagious.

So yeah, I don't try to convince anyone else that my views are correct. Most of the people I interact are happily going about their suburban lives, going out to eat every other night, going to the mall every weekend, buying trinkets and bling. They're just not interested in hearing that this may all change dramatically in their lifetimes anyway.

--Steve

[General Doom]

Nice post, FoolYap.

[patience]

I'm starting to get more affirmative responses to what I say about hard times. I do put an effort into making my remarks relevant to what people are experiencing and seeing around them, as in unemployment, and business slowdown. But, I think the biggest factor is that I live in a poverty pocket. People here were not too well off in the best of times. The upside is, they know how to be poor. They don't like it, but they DO know how to deal with it. Overall, I think I'm seeing the leading edge of the situation as it relates to rural America.

There is a local fear of the poverty many have experienced in the past, or been close to. Until about a year ago, nobody wanted to talk about it. One friend of mine saw the chicken house going up last year and asked, "Do you think it will get that bad, that you'll need to do this?" I answered yes, I do, and if things turn out better, well, I still have cheap eggs, right? His attitude spoke that he clearly didn't like the prospect at all, and would rather hide his head in the sand--but he DID recognize it for what it was, and he also knows how to deal with really hard times. Scared the stuffing out of him, though.

Meanwhile, a very few others have been taking serious steps toward their own self reliance, and getting a whole gamut of reactions to it. Most of the newbies of city origins ignore it altogether, mostly young ones. Clueless. But the oldest people either are, or were raised by Depression survivors. They look at the whole situation and are scared, too, but they have confidence in their own abilities--been there, done that, sort of thing. There faces are sober. Lots of old pain behind those faces. They are the ones who have their ducklings lined up, though--gardens and canning, clotheslines, woodstoves, no debts--it's how they have ALWAYS lived, with apologies to noone.

In the middle age groups are the ones I try to reach, and it is bearing more fruit now. A tool salesman stopped by the shop last week and the talk very quickly went to his insecurities about the future. I sent him off with a list of websites, and a short list of what to do now: purge the debts, get out of town if possible, grow food (told him how to smother out yard grass with black plastic and get a spot for a garden next Spring), trade off his expensive car for a small pickup, use the difference to pay debts, stock up on food, etc. He left with a headful of ideas, and I expect he will make some changes in his life. But he was ripe for picking.

Others, not so much, but they are changing. It's getting easier to get their attention, now that they feel the pinch, and see what is happening around them. If we can keep it to a slow slide down, some of them will make it, I think.

[redstategreen]

There is a local fear of the poverty many have experienced in the past, or been close to. Until about a year ago, nobody wanted to talk about it. One friend of mine saw the chicken house going up last year and asked, "Do you think it will get that bad, that you'll need to do this?" I answered yes, I do, and if things turn out better, well, I still have cheap eggs, right? His attitude spoke that he clearly didn't like the prospect at all, and would rather hide his head in the sand--but he DID recognize it for what it was, and he also knows how to deal with really hard times. Scared the stuffing out of him, though.

I think it's sad that people think raising your own food = poverty and fear.

[FlyingTurntables]

I am straight up with people. There is no gently for me. You get it, or you don't. Conversely, I hate it when people don't get to the point when talking to me.

I'm very Mike Ruppert-ish in my delivery, but less filtered. Billions are going to die for x, y and z reasons. If I don't think the person is smart enough to handle it (bovine-like), I don't talk to them at all about anything. I've shared with a few people my preps, mainly so that they know what to do. If they try and take them, then good luck. There isn't much that can take them without suffering serious harm to yourself or destroying them in the process.

I don't think it's going to be as apocalyptic as the movie and some doomers portray. It's going to be hectic (many, many dead), but not apocalyptic. TPTB have already invested in collapse. The biggest solar arrays in the western USA are owned by the government on a private grid (per private Austin green companies). All the executive orders under Bush that basically suspend all liberties? You think those were passed on whim? They know. Their data is much better than ours, obviously.