Blackouts

[SpringCreek]

I came to the conclusion that if the grid ever goes down for any real length of time, we're all toast. There is so much dependant on the grid being UP that if and when it goes down. Nothing will save us because we're a train rolling on downward grade and the brakes have just gone!

That is why I gave up on going "off the grid". If I ever do get solar panels, I'll likely just have a grid tie arangement with a battery BACKUP.

[EnergyUnlimited]

I came to the conclusion that if the grid ever goes down for any real length of time, we're all toast. There is so much dependant on the grid being UP that if and when it goes down. Nothing will save us because we're a train rolling on downward grade and the brakes have just gone!

That is why I gave up on going "off the grid". If I ever do get solar panels, I'll likely just have a grid tie arangement with a battery BACKUP.

...And if you are on sinking boat, better give up.
There are few guys much stronger than you are (and all the women are circling around these ) and they also have some guns.
So the best idea is to to give up and sink.
There might be some whiskey left in the bar after all and no one care to claim it.

[kpeavey]

When the lights go out overseas where the Wall Street banksters are shifting their money to hide it from taxation, and they can not get to their money because the banks/firms/offices/computers that handle it are down, I'm gonna get a big kick out of the whole thing.

[strider3700]

I was reading something online about gold contracts in excess of 10 million where the purchasers are paying 25% above and beyond as bonus's to guarantee that they get physical delivery. Apparently the really rich are smart enough to realize there is a lot more gold on paper then in the vaults. They won't be relying on electronic bits in some inaccessible computer to maintain their wealth.

[Newfie]

Sitting here doing my bills and listening to NPR when the "Emergency Alert" screech comes on. Chester County (just South of Philadelphia) is announcing that they are opening a shelter for people who are without electricity. They gave a phone number to get transportation.

I have never heard that actually used before. I've heard the tests, but never in use.

I don't know about elsewhere but in PA they have closed the Turnpike and its feeders. Not sure about Interstate 95. I think they also pulled the snow plows off to give drivers a chance to rest and regroup.

My power, in Philadelphia, has been stable and I have a diesel genset in the basement that can run the heat in emergency.

[Newfie]

Patience,

I came across this news bit at PO about Mat Simmons and making ammonia to replace liquid fuel. Use windmills to create electricity which then is used to make ammonia to power cars.

Sounds like he is thinking about how to store energy and it reminded me of our conversation here on that topic.

http://blogs.forbes.com/energysource/20 ... mons-plan/

[Newfie]

And another thing, listening to NPR (Fresh Air - Terry Gross) interviewed a cyber geek about cyber attacks on the US. Apparently he thinks that our power grid is pretty vulnerable to attack and is a likely target over the next few years.

[patience]

Newfie,

That's a new one on me. I dunno the process, nor how it would be used as fuel. NH3 is an oxidizer, right? Hmm. I'm lost. I'll check it out.

In most places, wind power is more intermittent than solar, which means a lot more storage capacity to benefit from wind. Daughter and I were talking about that today, and I pointed out that the farmers used windmills in the US to pump water for livestock and for home use. They also had a handle on the pump for dead periods, notably in late, hot summer. Later, windmills were used (Jacob's Winchargers) to charge batteries to power radios--nothing else! Further afield, the Dutch used windmills to pump water out of reclaimed land from the sea, and to grind grain--but their wind was near constant off the ocean.

My idea was, if storage is a problem, DON'T store it, USE it. Use wind power as direct mechanical power, like the old water pumpers. Or, near to that, when you have wind and the battery is full, run a motor with the excess and grind feed for the stock, flour, and cornmeal to last a while. Or, run a pump to put water in an attic tank. Go to the crib and run a motor to shell some corn until the wind dies down, then go back to whatever you were doing before that.

Overall, everytime you change the form of energy, there is a loss, so don't change it more than necessary. Yes, electricity is versatile, but so is mechanical power. The trade off is convenience, and we are really spoiled about convenience.

[SpringCreek]

I came to the conclusion that if the grid ever goes down for any real length of time, we're all toast. There is so much dependant on the grid being UP that if and when it goes down. Nothing will save us because we're a train rolling on downward grade and the brakes have just gone!

That is why I gave up on going "off the grid". If I ever do get solar panels, I'll likely just have a grid tie arangement with a battery BACKUP.

...And if you are on sinking boat, better give up.
There are few guys much stronger than you are (and all the women are circling around these ) and they also have some guns.
So the best idea is to to give up and sink.
There might be some whiskey left in the bar after all and no one care to claim it.

Yea...I guess that's what I'm saying...

In my area, which is fairly populated but still out in the sticks, there are too many inter-dependancies on the grid for there to be much of a contingency if the shit were to truly hit the fan. I've been planning / obsessing about this for years and have tried to come up with a plan to mitigate such a horrible scenario and frankly I cannot see what we could do. It's just too cold up here for people to survive without heat. People without wood burning stoves etc are going to first gather at "shelters" but even those will fail eventually because the diesel genset is out of fuel etc. It's very complicated and because of human nature, it will ultimately fail.

Now where is that whiskey you were talking about? And the women, for that matter.

[Newfie]

Just out of curiosity, I heard (back a year or two) that recent research showed the Colorado River watershed had, for the last 150 years or so, been particularity wet, nearly double normal. Therefore all the water use planning was based on a bogus amount of precipitation. The article was focused on altering water rights between residential use and farm use.

However............

If the Colorado drops by 50% you will loose irrigation and domestic water, but also hydro-electric generation.

So all those sheeple in that watershed and grid region will either have to convert to wind/solar (for power) or move. If they are faced with water problems I can see them being attracted to the Great Lakes region. But then they will have to contend with the winters and heat.

This all starts to make the South East look attractive. Not too cold, not too dry. Southern Comfort and Southern Belles. Y'all.

[TWilliam]

This all starts to make the South East look attractive. Not too cold, not too dry. Southern Comfort and Southern Belles. Y'all.

Go live there for a few years while there's still the chance to leave and really, I mean really pay attention to the general attitudes that prevail amongst the natives, and I think that you'll likely find that attraction fading. Been there, done that, and I gotta tell ya that Kunstler's caricatures of 'The South' are not all that inaccurate...

[the48thronin]

What a striking condemnation of all the people in a geographical area...

As a resident of Brundidge Alabama.... I see things I don't like, but they are not nearly as bad as i saw when I lived in the metroplex of Dallas, Texas for 4 years, or Guatemala for 3 years, or South Africa, or Israel, or Sacramento, california.. Or even when I moved back to Santa Fe, New Mexico for a couple years.. Having bought several pieces of land in Alabama and moved most of my descendants there, I tend to disagree with your statement. But then that is OK too, we all have our own experiences to draw from, and you might have spent your time in the city or something...

[Newfie]

I find that people are just people. Population density probably makes a big difference. And then there is the culture thing, if you are born into it then it is OK, if not, not.

Frankly I would just as soon not see too many people, I get to liking solitude, except for my wife.

The wife agrees, except that I bug her.

[the48thronin]

Being an air force brat raised in Roswell NM and Rancho Cordova Calif.. I cant really say I fit in here culturally..LOL But My neighbors have come to understand the important thing about me, My word is my bond and I expect the same from them or I simply stop having anything to do with them... Most of my neighbors are still friends, those that are not are tolerated or stay away.

We have a very strong neighborhood watch on my dirt road.

[TWilliam]

What a striking condemnation of all the people in a geographical area...

Interesting interpretation, ronin. I didn't condemn anyone; all I said was that Kunstler's characterizations of the 'culture' of The South were fairly accurate. Obviously not everyone who lives there wears the same shoes; don't stick your feet in them if they don't fit...

[patience]

I get along fine with most everyone, but the weather had a lot to do with our choice of location, and the fact that Indiana has LOTS of coal for electric generation, good farmland, and a fair compromise on other issues. The problem is, our electric power will get shared out over a vast area, if push comes to shove. And the grid in our area isn't in very good shape, either.

I'm hoping that since Indiana raises one heck of a lot of food for the rest of the nation, that we will get at least enough power to keep doing that.

[EnergyUnlimited]

In my area, which is fairly populated but still out in the sticks, there are too many inter-dependancies on the grid for there to be much of a contingency if the shit were to truly hit the fan. I've been planning / obsessing about this for years and have tried to come up with a plan to mitigate such a horrible scenario and frankly I cannot see what we could do.

Ability to produce relatively small amounts of electricity in erratic fashion (say by ICE driven by wood gas or by few solar panels) could still help.
It is not sustainable in long run but it could help to sustain *you* up to end of your life or for quite a while at least.

That is assuming transition to authoritarian system, which nevertheless respect private property and yet can be ruthless enough to tame crime wave related to collapse.

It's just too cold up here for people to survive without heat. People without wood burning stoves etc...

So get that damn wood burning stove if you live in suitable property.

Now where is that whiskey you were talking about? And the women, for that matter.

1. Women.
That bit is easy.
The most sought after (as per current believes) variety will clump around guys capable to secure at least small amounts of electricity but even more importantly winter heat, food, physical safety etc.
So they will be found pestling on those rich and armed, gang leaders, critical state officials/employees or any other "well prepared" and capable to defend their wealth.
So if you have happened to become one of these, you may accumulate plenty.

2. Whiskey.
Abandoned whiskey can be found on sinking ships, but I am afraid it might be in short supply in collapsing civilization.

[SpringCreek]

Hi EnergyUnlimited;

I grew up in a house that heated with wood. I've been burning nothing but wood for the last decade here at SCF. I have about 40 acres of hardwood give or take. Just filling you in....

It's the other people I'm concerned about.

btw....I just picked up a new bottle of Jim Beam last night.

[the48thronin]

Stock up while you can 40 creek barrel select for me LOL I have a 2 year supply on hand!

[EnergyUnlimited]

Hi EnergyUnlimited;

I grew up in a house that heated with wood. I've been burning nothing but wood for the last decade here at SCF. I have about 40 acres of hardwood give or take. Just filling you in....

It's the other people I'm concerned about.

btw....I just picked up a new bottle of Jim Beam last night.

I am getting a bit jealous...
I also live in firm countryside and I am not a "commuter" but nevertheless I do not have such resources at my disposal.
Few acres of land which are owned by me are mainly a farmland but I rent most for a local farmer and try to make a go with an acre or so.
Some crippled permaculture is attempted, you know.
Nevertheless I have my own water, heating (wood based, plenty of forests and also waste wood around etc).
I am a DIY handyman as well and I have certain earnings based on local economy (I got MSc in Chemistry and made career in UK pharma but I have used earned money to disconnect myself from the MatriX).

Nevertheless I make my money base on tourism (80%) and on local services (20%).
I consider myself relatively wealthy in Polish environment where I currently live and that 20% would do if critical for success.
I could supplement it still with some additional effort if needed.

I am optimist in respect of family success (1 beautiful and faithful Asian wife, that is up to the best of my knowledge and belief and 2 teenage kids) but I am a pessimist in respect of current economic paradigm success.

Sometimes I lean more pessimistic in general.
These zombie hordes, you know...